On Cadillac and the future of GM luxury

"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove) 09/24/2019 at 16:48 • Filed to: thoughts on a GM icon

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!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on wanting a new Land Rover coincides with my noticing this morning that my neighbor (who also has the red Guilia) got rid of her old LR for a new Caddy SUV. It made me think. People are bitching and moaning about how Cadillac is in serious crisis and won’t make it of f life support if  it doesn’t come up with better cars than the CT4 and CT5, blah, blah...

...But I see something a tad bit different in my home market. I see lots of new Caddy SUVs/CUVs driving around. The reviews I read describe them as good enough cars, but not class leaders and as blatant attempts at finding a cash cow to bolster up the brand—what deNyss chen was roundly criticized for not doing. These are attainable luxury that will bring in the profits from the mid-upper to upper income families that live all around me. And they will be good cars made from decent parts backed by a large dealer and service network. They will keep Cadillac afloat so that it can make the next Escala or Ciel that we hope will get to production before we die.

Which is not to say that if you want a LR, you shouldn’t get one. Just that I’m thinking enough LR or Rav4 or Explorer owners will trade into these to keep the brand funded. I see that as a good thing.

HammerheadFistpunch > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 16:57

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The trouble with Cadillac is that we all know its just a GM. It doesn’t bother me that my Lexus is a Toyota, or that an A cura is a H onda...because those are makes with well earned reputations for quality.  GM?  ha! no.  Im of the opinion that its not luxury if the foundation isn’t quality...no matter how many LED’s you put on the front.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > HammerheadFistpunch 09/24/2019 at 17:03

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I agree, and I was always under the impression that to combat this Cadillac traditionally was not just a re-skin of GM models and went out of their way to assert their difference, otherwise it’s just Buick. I’m not sure how Cadillac could differentiate itself now, especially when we can now see most luxury buyers really don’t care which wheels spin so Cadillacs being RWD will not be enough.

Chariotoflove > HammerheadFistpunch 09/24/2019 at 17:04

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But see, the thing is that I do see GM as quality.  GM has been making good cars for a long time now.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:05

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next Escala or Ciel

They have to make them first before we can get a next one :P

HammerheadFistpunch > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 09/24/2019 at 17:05

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Cadillac needs to be an electric only brand.  

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:08

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My dad and I were at the local mega dealer (like 8 brands under one roof) earlier this summer and he fell in love with the new XT6. He and my mom are looking for a new car or SUV and he showed it to her and now she really wants one.

In my oppoinion, the problem with Cadillac is that they don’t feel different enough from other GM products. For example, I don’t see much of a difference between a Cadillac XT4/5 and my GMC Terrain Denali except the $10k I saved. Quality and content wise there just isn’t much difference.

I think part of what makes Merc and BMW special is they have no direct economy sub-brands. Audi and Lexus, and to a lesser extent Acura, have done a great job of hiding it - I don’t look at one of their cars and go “o h, that’s just an expensive Jetta/Camry/Accord. ” But with Cadillac, I do.

I blame GM management in 2 ways - one, failing to change with the times and adapt Cadillac to a younger, sportier market in a timely manner. And there’s certainly no reason they couldn’t have made sports cars alongside land yachts - look at Mercedes AMG-GT and S-class cars. But this also exists at the intersection of the second point of failure - forcing too much cross-pla tform commonality and not letting Cadillac “be Cadillac. ” For example one of the more recent complaints is the 3.6L V6, a workhorse of an engine that’s great in many consumer level GM products, but it just doesn’t have the refinement to compete with other luxury brands in a premium luxury car.

Anyways, for the sake of the brand I hope you’re right an that people continue to buy Cadillacs so they can crank out some good cars one day. 

Chariotoflove > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 09/24/2019 at 17:09

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Yeah, hence my “before we die” comment. I realize you usually can’t really put outrageous concepts directly into production and expect to make money, but I feel like adding more from those concepts into production cars without watering them down as much might really have been the boldness that Caddy needs.

HammerheadFistpunch > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:09

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GM makes good (if a little disappointing and certainly ugly) trucks and they make fine (if not inspiring) cars. Even if their current crop of cars is quality (dependable and built with quality materials and workmanship) they’ve certainly not being doing it long enough to have built this as their reput ation.

Chariotoflove > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/24/2019 at 17:13

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I think Cadillac is finally differentiating itself from other GM models better with its design. I don’t work in auto manufacturing, but I imagine that it’s hard to make a big quality difference between a GMC and a Caddy on the same platform. So, design and features is where that has to come from.

One of the biggest ways to differentiate that GM needs to do is in the dealer experience, which from what I have read over the last several years, Cadillac has been trying to do. But, inertia is strong.

HammerheadFistpunch > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/24/2019 at 17:16

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Thats the gist of it.  

Chariotoflove > HammerheadFistpunch 09/24/2019 at 17:17

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See, I really like Cadillac design, except for the Escalade. That doesn’t appeal to me at all. The rest of their lineup looks really good to my eyes.

They have been building objectively good cars that have been steadily  getting better since the CTS. That’s 16 years. They just can’t separate from the legacy of the Cimmaron and Catera, or even from the Vega and the Chevette. Those ghosts seem to haunt every new effort.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > HammerheadFistpunch 09/24/2019 at 17:19

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I think there’s more to it than just quality. Honda and Toyota have had their gaffs, too. On top of that GM traditionally made great cars and while they stumbled for a while, certianly in the last decade or so they have really stepped their game up.

To me the issue is more that Cadillacs don’t feel “special. ” I get in my folk’s Acura RSX-S and don’t think “Oh, just a fancy Civic. ” But I sat in an ATS recently and the first thing that jumped out at me was that it uses the exact same shift knob that’s in my Cruze. It doesn’t matter how good the chassis is, how well it drives, how fast or efficient it is, when you’re trying to be premium it’s those little details that count and Cadillac has failed. Acura, Lexus and Audi have done a great job of distancing themselves from their baser counterparts. BMW and Mercedes “benefit” in this regard by not having direct economy sub-brands to compare to.

Speaking of, there’s also an issue of the way content has been pushed down to even pedestrain cars. Everything has an infotainment system now (thanks to backup cams) and you can get leather and LED lights in a Civic. Tech content alone doesn’t define premium . In that regard, l ooking at the Cadillac XT4/5 and my GMC Terrain Denali, the only real difference I can see is the $10k I saved buying a GMC because I got everything I would have wanted in the Cad anyways. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:19

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This is all fine as long as their price point reflects that product placement.

If your car is LR-priced but not LR-fancy or LR-capable, then you’ve got a problem.

We all bag on Cadillac for not looking special enough, but if the price is right then GM could be right for chasing volume.  FWIW, I haven’t been seeing much of the new Caddys here in CA.

HammerheadFistpunch > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:20

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I don’t mind their design, though it can be a bit bland. But while they are improving, the data says they’ve a long way to go yet.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10/gm-brands-slammed-in-latest-consumer-reports-reliability-survey/

http://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Cadillac.html

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:23

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I imagine that it’s hard to make a big quality difference between a GMC and a Caddy on the same platform.

Tell that to Lexus and Acura. I mentioned this in my reply to HHFP above - I get in my parents Acura and don’t think “Hmm, just a fancy Civic. ” But I sat in a Cadillac ATS recently and the first thing I noticed was the exact same shift knob that’s in my Cruze, with the exact same fake chrome paint trim flaking off in the same places.

I think GM just cheaps out sometimes, and it shows. 

HammerheadFistpunch > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/24/2019 at 17:25

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Given that GM has GMC, Cadillac AND Buick all trying to be fancier Chevrolets...its tough.  That being said Toyota et al share parts too, but they are good parts that aren’t obvious.  Same window switches in my lexus as a Toyota...doesn’t mater, they work great and don’t call attention to themselves. 

My X-type is too a real Jaguar > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:27

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The problem with Cadillac is identity, they’ve been playing catch-up since the 80s and have become reactionary rather than revolutionary. Remember it was Lincoln that launched the luxury SUV not Cadillac. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > HammerheadFistpunch 09/24/2019 at 17:43

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You nailed it. GM tries to hard to copy itself. I think they need to get back to something more like the original formula. If I ran GM, here’s how I’d do it:

Chevrolet: bread and butter, everyman’s cars. Chevrolet should be leading in the development of economy cars / small platforms, etc. They should offer a cars with a few trims, all the sort of normal available stuff, in basic trims and slightly fancier trims with leather.

Cadillac: developing the premium platforms - these get shared down to maybe like a single top Chevy (i.e. Impala or Malibu, as well as sports cars like the Camaro). A Cadillac needs t0 get its own look, own interiors, and they have to feel like premium cars.

Buick: Gets a mix of Chevy and Cadillac platforms to make cars that fill a sort of sports-luxury role. The already did this once with the Regal GS (i.e. Cruze with leather but also the 2.0L turbo which was never offered in the Cruze).

GMC/Denali: I kind of like that GMC makes work trucks and then has the Denali sub-brand for premium Trucks/SUVs. Again, people should have a choice of a basic Chevy Silverado or a nicer one with leather, but a Denali truck should be sort of the Caddy truck equivalent. One of the few times I think GM can/should compete against itself - I’d keep the Escalade because it’s become a bit of a Caddy icon.  

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:48

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The dealership experience is huge, though it’s not just Cadillac who needs to work on that, but all of GM.  Though to be fair the thing that annoys me most about buying a new car isn’t always the dealership itself (though I’ve encounteder my fair share of awful sales people).  It’s the financial aspect - I’m tired of all the incentives and rebates and how they change, and also how dealers are allowed to advertise crazy low prices based on combining all these things but make it difficult to determine just what exactly you qualify for, etc.  Just give me an honest, reasonable price on the car. 

Chariotoflove > HammerheadFistpunch 09/24/2019 at 17:56

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It’s interesting comparing those two links. The CR report says that Cadillac finished pretty far down, but that Honda dropped precipitously and MB was mid pack. It said BMW was in the top 10 for reliability. The Dashboard link says Cadillac is about industry average and better than BMW with Mazda far below it (while CR put Mazda near the top). It also seems that new infotainment and introduction of more complex transmission and turbo engines were cited as causing problems for a number of manufactures.

My overall take is that, yes, Cadillac has a ways to go yet before they are the “S tandard of the World”.  I’m crossing my fingers that they keep going up.

HammerheadFistpunch > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 17:58

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The dashboardlight is longer term and based on actual repairs not guesses.  

Chariotoflove > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/24/2019 at 18:02

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But I’m talking about quality. What that means to me is are the components well designed, well made, durable, and function well. Quality needs to be tip top as much as can be at all price points. So, if you’re going to offer leather in a Denali, it needs to be the best leather GMC can source at that price point and still make money on the car. Given procurement across the corporation, I’m guessing that leather will be sourced from the same place for both makes.

What I think you’re talking about is design.  You feel like there should be more design flair and uniqueness put into each component of a luxury car than in a premium make.  I agree.  I’n not worried too much about switches and buttons, as long as they fit the design of the interior, but things like putting a Chevy-like speedo in an ATS is inexcusable.

LJ909 > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 18:02

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I honestly don’ t think it will be enough. And if it does, it’ll only be enough to fund more mediocre crossovers that few want. And they offerings they have don’ t particularly portray the image they want. If you have sat in one or driven one like I half they come across as slightly better corporate GM. And then they make you spring for the big bucks to make it really luxury. Cadillac is going to loose out to Lincoln, who’ s doing things right and I think they know this. The new XT6 shows this. Its a swing for the fences that’ s trying to bank on Aviator buyers.

facw > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 09/24/2019 at 18:02

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GM built some truly awful badge- engineered cars, and what they are learning is that it’s hard to come back from. Once you’ve destroyed your reputation, you need a sustained period of building good cars, and when you build something good, you can’t just price it like the competition, you have to come in cheaper, because otherwise why not buy from a more trusted brand. But that dynamic creates pressure to decrease quality to increase margins, and they have to constantly be fighting that. It’s probably too late for GM to learn from that, they’ll have to do things the hard way, but for others the takeaway is that if you have an image as a premium brand, you need to do the work to keep up that image (or accept that you are going to drive it into the ground and try to extract as much cash before its worthless).

Chariotoflove > My X-type is too a real Jaguar 09/24/2019 at 18:04

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They went for performance luxury and largely succeeded , but benchmarked BMW so closely and publicly that they positioned themselves as imitators instead of innovators.

Chariotoflove > Snuze: Needs another Swede 09/24/2019 at 18:12

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Yes, people have a need to feel they’re getting a deal.  They also don’t like to feel they are being put through hoops.

My X-type is too a real Jaguar > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 18:12

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Exactly see what we can build when we try we can be just as good as BMW. Ok we’ve done that back to making crap. 

Chariotoflove > HammerheadFistpunch 09/24/2019 at 18:14

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Which I like better.  In the Cadillac breakout, I noticed the average for the brand was brought down mostly by older models.  However, the XLR was at the top, and the CTS at the bottom.  So, surprises there for me.

Chariotoflove > LJ909 09/24/2019 at 18:16

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I was really impressed with the CT6.  I haven’t sat in the new XT or CT cars, so I can’t agree or disagree on that.  But isn’t that also the way with BMW?  They don’t have a down market model to compare to, so they have the advantage there, but really when I sit in lower trim 3 series for example, I get the feeling of well-build but not at all luxury.

Chariotoflove > My X-type is too a real Jaguar 09/24/2019 at 18:18

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Yeah, except for the part about back to making crap.  Aren’t the cars since the ATS staying good drivers?  That’s what I’ve been reading.

My X-type is too a real Jaguar > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 18:51

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The sport utes haven’t been approaching the X5 X3 territory from what I’ve read. I’m realistic I know the sedan buyers like me are a dying customer, but suvs print money and the Cadillac is not that different than its platform mate. 

LJ909 > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 18:53

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The CT6 is fantastic. I’ve sat in an XT6 recently and the GM in it shown through. To get it Cadillac like you need to spend used year old Escalade money to get it what it should be out the gate. Hand stitched leather on the dash, real wood or carbon fiber trim etc.

Its the same with BMW to a point though. Yes lower trimmed 2,3 and some of the smaller X crossovers have low rent interiors. But the difference is its going to be the same build quality and attention to detail just with cheaper switch gear. I could be wrong but I’ve never know BMW to share switchgear or interior trim pieces with Mini. And its unacceptable getting into a $70k crossover and seeing a windshield washer stalk and a headlight switch thats shared with 2 other cars that are under 30 grand. Not saying this is exclusive to Cadillac, but its just not a good look.

Chariotoflove > LJ909 09/24/2019 at 19:13

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That’s my point. BMW hasn’t any cheaper line to reuse stuff (Mini is so different that there’s no danger of that), so they are saved from that comparison. It’s also my point that to get real luxury in a BMW, the options charges add up quickly. People accept that as the price of getting a nicer Bee mer, but they cry bloody murder when Cadillac does the same kind of pricing. That’s because Cadillac isn’t seen in the same light yet.

So, the only remaining concern for me  is whether or not the lower trim stuff is of good quality. If yes, like in a 3 series, then all is good. If the stuff is noticeably worse, that’s a problem. I simply don’t notice if a switch or button might also be found on a Cruze. I’m not going around comparing. BUT, if it doesn’t feel like it belongs in that cabin design and it looks cheap, then I have a big problem.

Bandit > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 19:16

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There are too many keyboard warriors out there that have never sat in a modern generation (2019+) Cadillac. It annoys me with all the bashing.

Because of my job I get to drive new Cadillacs quite frequently and am incredibly impressed how far the company has come from. The ATS and CTS are awful compared to the recently face lifted CT6, and the CT4/5s are leaps and bounds better than what they’re replacing. Sure the old cars were fantastic to drive but they looked outdated when they came out and CUE was awful, the new cars fix both of those issues while retaining the driving dynamics. 

On the crossover side, the XT4 is surprisingly good to the point I thought about getting one. The XT6 is a plush highway cruiser but drives like a much smaller car and doesn’t make you look like an asshole who drives a full size Escalade. I will say I’m not a big fan of the XT5, but it is the oldest car Cadillac makes and the facelift wasn’t a big enough change for 2020 in my opinion.

In the past the interiors were absolutely terrible and the exteriors were fairly meh, there’s no getting around that. But the company has really turned things around here with these new generations of cars. Go to a Cadillac only dealer, sit in one, take a test drive, you will be surprised. It is not the same company as Cadillac in 2010... or 2000, or 1990, or 1980.

LJ909 > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 19:21

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but they cry bloody murder when Cadillac does the same kind of pricing. That’s because Cadillac isn’t seen in the same light yet.

This. And people don’ t think they are worth the price. Its sad that, from what I’ ve gathered talking to people, many will gladly buy them used but wont touch them new. But will head over to BMW or Mercedes and gladly pay the price that just complained about at Cadillac.

Chariotoflove > Bandit 09/24/2019 at 19:24

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That’s the feeling I got starting with the CT6 I got in. I’m not an unreasonable fanboy. I sat in the ATS before that , and I thought the dash needed softer feeling leather, the gauges were low rent, etc...but I was blown away when I sat in a CT6 and an S C lass back to back at a car show . It wasn’t as posh in some ways with some of the baroque -feeling stitching , but it definitely felt as good to sit in.

So now I figure the company gets the benefit of my doubt until I learn otherwise with the new models, which is the exact opposite of those “keyboard warriors” you mention. Their mantra is that a Caddy is shit until proven otherwise...and they  can’t be bothered to go find out.

Chariotoflove > LJ909 09/24/2019 at 19:29

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Right. I’m not going to argue that Cadillacs are objectively better or equal to BMWs here. That’s a futile argument to make because opinions and preferences are complex and individual things. What I’ll argue is that it doesn’t matter  at this point. What matters is mindset.

Bandit > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 19:38

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Yeah I was amazed when I first got to personally see the back to back differences of the current (old) vs future (just released) cars. I’d still never  buy one new, GM needs to do something about the staggering depreciation, but a used CT4 or CT6 would make a decent daily driver.

Jim Ellis > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 20:27

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I see the same thing in my town. Lots of XT5 and now XT4s are popping up everywhere. When I saw the XT4 over and over, I kept thinking how handsome it was. So, I went and test dro ve, then bought! Had no intention of actually trading that day . But, I had been trying to decide which small SUV to buy. Almost did Infinity QX50, but no Android Auto and out of date screen graphics were a deal breaker. The caddy had it all and the looks. Not to mention the best seat ever. I bet this rediscovery is quietly going on in lots of places, while the keyboard warriors keep hating. I am loving mine.

Chariotoflove > Bandit 09/24/2019 at 20:59

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I wouldn’t buy one new either, but that’s mostly because I could never afford it. True they depreciate like used chewing gum, but that’s something the luxury segment can’t shake anyway.

Chariotoflove > Jim Ellis 09/24/2019 at 21:09

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I think that’s likely an accurate assessment. Not everyone is going to like the same cars. But all Cadillac needs is to get bu yers to give them a chance, to bring in the folks who would like them if they tried with open minds.

shop-teacher > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 22:13

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The problem is, and I say this as a GM fan who really wants them to succeed, the problem is GM has gone back to their old habits if shooting for the middle. And t he problem with that, is thay even  if they do finally grow the balls to produce the Escala , or the Ciel ... It will have a garbage interior.

Chariotoflove > shop-teacher 09/24/2019 at 22:34

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Why do you say that?  The CT6 I last sat in had a fabulous interior. The CTS too. I see no reason to assume the worst until it comes to pass. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 22:57

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I think theres a bit of overlap there, or maybe we’re talking different sides of the same coin. What you’re describing is, to me, more along the lines of reliability - something that is going to withstand use and continue to perform its intended function.

I remember my dad had a work van and the side cargo door hinges would fail every 3-4 years, and the drivers seat would blow out at similarly regular intervals. Inexcusable for a heavy duty contractor van. Doesn’t matter what material they are made from, theres a reasonable expectation they last longer than 3 years on a 1-ton work van.

I say this because, going back to your point, quality can be achieved at different price points and with different materials. I agree that a Denali, as top of the line GMC should have the best leather GMC can get and meet their price point. But if Cadillac is going to be billed the premium GM brand, and they want to compete against Lexus, Acura, BMW, etc then they need to do even better than Denali. A Cadillac SUV thats $10k more expensive than my Denali needs to do 2 things: be uniquely a Cadillac and be $10k better. They’ve got the first part down, I think Cadillacs current crop of vehicles look great and look uniquely Cadillac, at least on the outside. Its the second part that they are falling short on.

Circling back to the design thing, I think the use of Chevy components is fine when app ropriate because they are generally of good quality. I don't think every single component of a Cadillac has to be unique, I just think GM drops the ball in picking the wrong places to cut corners.  T he ATS is a prime candidate to rip on Cadillac because its a fantastic car that absolutely reeks of GM corporate cost cutting. As I mentioned, theres the Cruze shifter. Its an okay knob, with a pleather wrap (which by the way has been durable for 140k miles and counting) and faux chrome trim ring. It honestly looks only slightly better than some Chinese junk you'd find on Amazon, and that's fine for a Cruze, but not a Caddy. I mean that's a major interface point between driver and car. With all the work GM put into making the Alpha platform AMAZING why would you pick that item to cheap out on? Use a Cruze rearview mirror, or map lights, or grab handles above the door, stuff no one is really going to pay attention to, but not a major interface point in the car.  

coqui70 > Chariotoflove 09/24/2019 at 23:34

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Cadillac is going to make insane profits from the XT4, new XT5 and XT6. When the new Escalade comes out that’s going upmarket since the Navigator is giving them a contender to deal with.

CT6 needs to stick around - even if a limited-edition range-topper . CT4 and CT5 have chance if they get the quality and value equations right - plus real V-series power.

Now ... here’s what they keep getting wrong ... the model names. You’re not an European company, and will never be. Lincoln gets it. Escalade has it - do the rest of the lineup a favor:

CT6 -> Eldorado

CT5 -> Seville

CT4 -> Calais

XT6 -> Fleetwood

XT5 -> Palomino (50's concept)

XT4 -> Espada

Then figure out a new segment for a break-through product. A few possibilities:

A knockout coupe/convertible with refined performance

A premium shooting-brake (I miss the CTS wagon)

An executive limo-van (cooler if electric)

Chariotoflove > coqui70 09/25/2019 at 00:25

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I think no question they have to get back to naming their cars. They abandoned so much of their heritage with this alphanumeric shit. 

Old-Busted-Hotness > Chariotoflove 09/25/2019 at 07:03

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Cadillac has been re-inventing itself and getting it wrong since the mid 1980s. They will continue to do so until nobody cares anymore. They’re already dangerously close.

What they need is a solid vision of what they want to be , and the ability to spend the money to make it happen. Unique platforms and engines would be a good start, and trim them out accordingly. They almost had it with the Northstar, but failed on execution. The rest of the car wasn’t built to the same standard.

Somehow Lincoln is just killing it with fancy Fords. Cadillac needs more than fancy Chevys to compete. Give us the goddamn Elmiraj already.